| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Payment Dispute Thread poster: Alex Wang
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William Bowley
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:09
Spanish to English
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There are a few issues here:
- Firstly, factual errors and mistranslations are not acceptable in any translation, even 'Light MTPE'. Issues with style, quality of language and clarity of expression, or even inconsequential missing articles or words (but where the meaning is still correct) amongst other factors, are common to Light MTPE.
- Even Full MTPE will very rarely produce a file of similar quality to a manual translation by a highly-skilled professional - for all ... See more There are a few issues here:
- Firstly, factual errors and mistranslations are not acceptable in any translation, even 'Light MTPE'. Issues with style, quality of language and clarity of expression, or even inconsequential missing articles or words (but where the meaning is still correct) amongst other factors, are common to Light MTPE.
- Even Full MTPE will very rarely produce a file of similar quality to a manual translation by a highly-skilled professional - for all the want in the world, when it comes down to it, it simply won't. MTPE by nature is a shortcut, and shortcuts don't tend to end up producing high quality final products, time after time (as Kay-Viktor alludes to).
- As others mention, your failure was not establishing clear expectations about what the job involved. It shows quite some naivety to state you gave the linguist a file from Google translation, expecting a (near-)perfect translation. No excusing the objective errors, and the linguist seems the opposite of thorough, but the linguist is right as far as that any changes are meant to be essential ones, not an exhaustive reworking of the MTPE output (that may be inconvenient to the outsourcer, but is inherent to the nature of MTPE). Otherwise ask for a translation from scratch, not MTPE of Google output. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray 
Netherlands
Local time: 19:09
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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Alex Wang wrote:
I definitely agree with Philip, i.e., when you do decide to take a job on your own, whether it is described or not through a PO or not, it is the basic responsibility of any serious/professional translator ... to deliver a “usable” translation ... free of typos, grammatical errors, and inaccuracies.
I was surprised to see in the link posted by Jo, which is a blog post by the translation agency RWS, it says that (as far as they are concerned) light MTPE means among other things "correcting grammar and spelling mistakes only if they affect the meaning", which may be what your editor had done. RWS is one of the largest agencies out there, so if this is their interpretation of "light MTPE", then it means that it is very important for anyone ordering "MTPE" to specify what they mean.
Alex Wang wrote:
The file info of Microsoft Word (by the way, I still have his original delivery file) shows that he spent less than 10 minutes on the entire 9000-word document. If you wonder what is the file info of Microsoft Word, click File and then Info.
The "total editing time" isn't very accurate, though. When I do a translation, I typically do the translation in a separate file, and only copy/paste the final translation into the deliverable file near the end. This means that my documents show a "total editing time" of 5 minutes even if I spent several hours doing the translation.
A dozen edits across 9000 words of Google Translate does look extremely unlikely, though. In my language combination, Google Translate is very, very good, but it's not THAT good.
If you are able to find several meaning errors (serious meaning errors), and/or grammar/spelling errors that would cause confusion/misunderstanding, then that would be sufficient reason not to pay this translator, in my opinion, because even if he did do what RWS calls a "light MTPE", these types of errors should not be present.
| | | | Alex Wang
Local time: 12:09
English to Chinese
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TOPIC STARTER
I have to say that I am really amazed at how many of you would argue about whether errors are acceptable during machine translation editing. I mean, if your client has not made it clear, you would not hesitate to deliver a translation with many obvious, objective, and undeniable errors? Sorry, but that is just cheating and unprofessional and unacceptable to me. Come on, there are always basic expected responsibilities in any profession whether your client has made it clear not. In the translatio... See more I have to say that I am really amazed at how many of you would argue about whether errors are acceptable during machine translation editing. I mean, if your client has not made it clear, you would not hesitate to deliver a translation with many obvious, objective, and undeniable errors? Sorry, but that is just cheating and unprofessional and unacceptable to me. Come on, there are always basic expected responsibilities in any profession whether your client has made it clear not. In the translation business, such errors shouldn’t even exist whether your client has made it clear or not and whatever the approach is.
Let me present a scenario to those of you holding such an opinion:
You hire a plumber to fix a big leak in a pipe in your house/apartment. After he’s gone, you discover the next day that there is still a tiny leak in the pipe, which you didn't notice the day before. Obviously, you already paid him in this case. Would you expect/allow the plumber to argue that you did not make it clear that there should be no tiny leak either even though this leak is so tiny that it will only wet your floor in about three weeks if it continues. The big leak was fixed, wasn’t it? You should have made it clear that there should be no tiny leak either. This is something real that happened to me. My plumber came back and fixed the tiny leak with no additional charge, of course, because he knew it was his responsibility to fix the leak completely even though I didn’t say anything.
I should also have pointed out: This translator charged me the full per word translation price, not per hour or reduced machine translation editing price. So, if a translator charges full translation price, shouldn’t I expect the delivered translation to be of near-perfect quality even if I didn’t say anything about light or full machine translation editing? I did make it clear to him that the Google translation is provided for convenience only. Is that not clear enough specification? No, I did not use “light” or “full” MPTE editing. But what difference does it make whether I used those terms not? None to me.
I have to say that I really learned a lot about your perspectives as translators even when I don’t agree, which means that I will make it absolutely clear next time: no typo, no grammatical error, no inaccuracy, and no inconsistency even when it seems to be the basic expectations of any translation for me.
Anyway, thanks to all of you for your comments and time. Have a wonderful and prosperous life to all of you. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jo Macdonald
Spain
Local time: 19:09
Italian to English
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| Google translate + very little editing? | Oct 4, 2021 |
From your job posting
https://www.proz.com/translation-jobs/1814897
"If you have never done any Google translation MPTE editing before, its quality is extremely good nowadays due to the use of its AI engine. I typically edit no more than 30% of the Google generated translation."
If Google translate is so extremely good why are you now complaining about the quality of... See more From your job posting
https://www.proz.com/translation-jobs/1814897
"If you have never done any Google translation MPTE editing before, its quality is extremely good nowadays due to the use of its AI engine. I typically edit no more than 30% of the Google generated translation."
If Google translate is so extremely good why are you now complaining about the quality of what you've created and that so little has been edited? If it was so good presumably very little would need changing, which leads to the next point.
Only 30% work required to post-edit Google sounds like really cheap PEMT (Light-PE). The job does not sound like you want anything like decent quality Full-PE, which is more like 70%.
If you're using Google translate + cheap PE for your jobs, don't expect a great translation. This is where your quality problem comes from. With things like medical translations (as in this case) I would seriously reconsider how you are doing these jobs. It looks like almost all the jobs you've posted on Proz are Google translate + very little PE.
If you want a decent translation and insist on using MT, at least use a good MT engine and pay someone for the time it takes to do Full PE, then you will get something that reads like a human translator might have written it.
If on the other hand you agreed to pay the translator his full per word translation price then you should have gotten a quality translation worth what you paid for it, or rather haven't paid for it.
[Edited at 2021-10-04 12:18 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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IrinaN
United States
Local time: 12:09
English to Russian
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| Just tell him | Oct 4, 2021 |
Alex Wang wrote:
I am currently disputing a payment issue with a poz member and want to see what my other colleagues think.
he threatened to email my client directly and publicize my name as a non-payer.
"You do that, and I'll send your untouched masterpiece to the end client, and then publish it on translator platforms in response to your claims."
| | | | Adieu
Ukrainian to English
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You cannot just disclose your client's documents because you want to shame your self-righteously incompetent and/or thieving minion
IrinaN wrote: Alex Wang wrote:
I am currently disputing a payment issue with a poz member and want to see what my other colleagues think.
he threatened to email my client directly and publicize my name as a non-payer.
"You do that, and I'll send your untouched masterpiece to the end client, and then publish it on translator platforms in response to your claims."
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On this part, since you brought it up:
Alex Wang wrote:
Obviously, every translation agency and every one of their clients, myself included, is always looking for ways to cut cost even though the prices of everyday living keep going up. That is just the way of life whether we like it or not. Why wouldn’t they? I mean, if I can get an iPhone for $500, why should I pay $1,000?
I have long suggested that any editing or revision of a translation, however done, including MT, should be charged by the hour. A poorly done translation is take longer to correct, and more exhausting, than doing it from scratch. Therefore that revision should end up costing more than the translation done from scratch. When I am sent work like this, I examine the document and tell the client how much it would cost as a revision job, versus a retranslation. As a client, you would certainly opt out of MTPE unless you actually had an excellent translation in your hands. Considering the errors you cited, that doesn't seem to be the case.
You gave the example of a term that was translated three different ways by the MT, and the inconsistency was not caught by the person you hired. When translating, such an error would rarely happen, but if it's been mistranslated already, it is much harder to catch.
You gave the example of something like a plumbing job, I think. If a home owner gets some automatic gizmo and uses it to install plumbing "cheaply", and then you hire a plumber to fix the mess, I think the plumber would charge top dollar, and maybe have you sign a liability waiver because of the extra risk.
That said, ethically if one is hired to do a job, I'd think one would want to do it properly.
| | | | | Light MTPE? Thanks but no, not for love or money | Oct 5, 2021 |
Kay-Viktor Stegemann wrote:
Full MTPE = target text has to be on native professional translation level = Target text can be used for all purposes = Translation rates will be very close to native professional translation rates
Light MTPE = target text must be understandable, but errors and mistranslations are tolerated = Target text can only be used in a context where inferior quality is expected/tolerated = Translation rates will be lower than professional translation rates
The cardinal error of many agencies and clients is the idea that any level of MTPE will give you full quality at a reduced price. This will never work.
Exactly.
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I might accept a "full MTPE" job, when the ultimate total price supports my regular hourly rate (even if a per-word rate has been agreed). If I take on an MTPE job, I will make every effort to produce a polished translation ready for publication.
But I am avoiding "light MTPE" jobs like the plague. One of them is likely to backfire someday.
Translators (and agencies) accepting "light MTPE" jobs are prone to complaints and even potential lawsuits. They will have a hard time arguing that certain "errors and mistranslations are to be tolerated".
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[quote]Vladimir Pochinov wrote:
Kay-Viktor Stegemann wrote:
I might accept a "full MTPE" job, when the ultimate total price supports my regular hourly rate (even if a per-word rate has been agreed). If I take on an MTPE job, I will make every effort to produce a polished translation ready for publication.
But I am avoiding "light MTPE" jobs like the plague. One of them is likely to backfire someday.
Translators (and agencies) accepting "light MTPE" jobs are prone to complaints and even potential lawsuits. They will have a hard time arguing that certain "errors and mistranslations are to be tolerated".
I accept full MTPE as well, but light one, no... for the reasons mentioned above.
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I know it’s not very constructive, but I had to laugh at the idea of someone using Google Translate to cut costs and then being disappointed with the quality of the end-product.
And the moral of the story is… blindingly obvious.
| | | | | Product descriptions and such | Oct 5, 2021 |
Vladimir Pochinov wrote:
Translators (and agencies) accepting "light MTPE" jobs are prone to complaints and even potential lawsuits. They will have a hard time arguing that certain "errors and mistranslations are to be tolerated".
Look at your favorite online shop/ecommerce site/online auction platform. (Or if not your favorite platform, then look at the biggest ones) You will find millions of product descriptions there that are so poorly written/translated that sometimes it is difficult to find out what kind of product this actually is.
Look at online travel sites and the descriptions of hotels, apartments, or places there. Again, you will find lots of awful texts.
Look at big real estate brokerage sites. Same thing.
And even though these texts are so awful, they sell products, vacations, even whole houses. People are getting used to awful texts. People know what they want and they extract the information they need from the lousy product descriptions and then they buy, particularly if the price is the main selling point.
Most of these product offers are addressed to a global market, and it would be prohibitively expensive to have them translated professionally to dozens of target languages. Most of these awful texts are probably machine-translated from source texts that were written poorly in the first place. Participants in this market are looking desperately for ways to get the message to their audience cheaply. And I know that at least one of the big platforms mentioned above offers the service of "light MTPE" to the product providers, and in this context, clean and correct language has not much priority, they are much more interested in getting their SEO keywords placed and their brand names spelled correctly. I have done this kind of work in order to find out if a translator can get a decent hourly rate out of it, but it did not work for me, as was to be expected.
I don't like this fact, but it's still a fact. There is a market for really bad translations that only just get the meaning conveyed, as long as the price point is really low. That's why it is so important to be really clear in instructions whenever you dive down in the muddy depths of this market.
| | | | | Different translation markets | Oct 5, 2021 |
Kay-Viktor Stegemann wrote:
There is a market for really bad translations that only just get the meaning conveyed, as long as the price point is really low.
Luckily, there is a high-end translation market with zero tolerance for (significant) errors, where clients will pay top dollar for error-free translations.
The cheapest is the dearest (two real-world illustrations)
1. An operator in Cyprus pushes a button following the instructions in the operation manual translated from Russian, which results in the breakdown of an engine worth $250,000. The Russian seller of the equipment had to replace the engine at their own expense.
2. A mistranslated phrase in a share purchase agreement was one of the major triggers for international arbitration proceedings, with $300mln at stake, that lasted for almost five years and cost the client (of the law firm where I worked at the time) between $1mln and $1.5mln annually in legal fees.
Note: To avoid any misunderstanding, I was not the one to blame for the above errors.
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| Raising awareness | Oct 5, 2021 |
Vladimir Pochinov wrote:
Luckily, there is a high-end translation market with zero tolerance for (significant) errors, where clients will pay top dollar for error-free translations.
The cheapest is the dearest (two real-world illustrations)
I'm totally with you here, and translators should always strive to be part of this high-end market. But all sides, providers and clients alike, have to be aware that these different market segments exist and must be differentiated. Clients and agencies must be aware that using "light MTPE" only works if they are addressing the low-end-no-questions-asked market with their products or services, and that all risks are on themselves. Clients must be aware that if they want to convince anyone, if they want to sell anything on its value/quality and not on the cheapest price, or if their products/services are used/applied on a professional level, they need professional, human translation, and that they cannot cut corners here with any kind of MTPE.
| | | | Adieu
Ukrainian to English
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Stealing from your employers is still wrong.
Let's not forget that.
| | | | IrinaN
United States
Local time: 12:09
English to Russian
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| Run it by me again, please | Oct 5, 2021 |
Adieu wrote:
You cannot just disclose your client's documents
He can not send the end client his (client's) own document? Or use any random sentence as an example? Quite often you don't even need the original to point out grammatical mistakes in the target language, forget the accuracy of the translation per se.
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