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每小时翻译字数
Thread poster: XIAODAN SUN
ysun
ysun  Identity Verified
United States
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并非文人相轻 Apr 14, 2013

J.H. Wang wrote:

粗略看了译者的博客。感觉他还是做了很多的翻译的工作,而且努力消除别人翻译的错误,在其翻译作品中有畅销书。从这一点来说,作为同行,译者还是有值得我们尊敬的一方面。至于不足,可以慢慢提高改进。

我上面说了,“我并非攻其一点,不及其余。我只是想说,如果他把速度放慢些,应该就可以避免这些低级错误”。我们讨论的焦点是速度和质量这一对矛盾。

他那篇博客文章主要是评驳施康强先生在《文学翻译:后傅雷时代》里关于翻译速度和稿酬的观点。对于文学翻译我是外行,但文学翻译作品的好坏,我还是看得出来。我认为,翻译文学作品比翻译科技资料难得多,所以花的时间也就多得多。我很同意施康强先生的观点。

《文学翻译:后傅雷时代》 施康强
http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_517d4f5e01014z9l.html
把翻译当作一门精致的艺术,今天这样的翻译家已经不多了。在一般翻译家手里,翻译更多是一种技巧,一种“匠活”。根据我自己的经验和对同行的调查,以每六小时为一个工作日计算,一个熟练、敬业的译者在状态好的情况下,一天平均可译两千字初稿。但是同样必须有个反复核对、修改的后期制作阶段。最后折算下来,一天的进度也就一千五百字左右。

计算每小时翻译字数,应该如施康强先生所说,包括“反复核对、修改的后期制作”,应该是指提供最终译稿,而不是初稿。我前面说,为了保证质量,我的翻译速度为 300 words/hr 左右。这里面就包括我自己反复核对和修改所花的时间。如果翻译内容熟悉和重复性强的专利,借助于 Trados 等工具,我的速度便可达 500 words/hr 或以上。一篇 50,000 words 的专利,我两个星期左右就可译完。这样的速度及译稿的质量可让客户与我各得其所、皆大欢喜。我看不出有什么必要再进一步提高速度。

[Edited at 2013-04-15 01:28 GMT]


 
Jinhang Wang
Jinhang Wang  Identity Verified
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毫无指责的意思 Apr 14, 2013

ysun wrote:

并非文人相轻




其实,我毫无指责的意思。我只是觉得问题归问题,从另一面说,他翻译工作做得很多,是有成果、有功劳的人,作为同行,应该有同情的一面。就当前整体的图书翻译质量而言(有的翻译的图书错误千出),说不定他翻得算是比较好的呢。


 
wherestip
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难说得很 Apr 14, 2013

Alan Wang wrote:


  原文:In consequence, I’m inclined to reserve all judgments, a
habit that has opened up many curious natures to me and also made me
the victim of not a few veteran bores.

  译文:久而久之,我就惯于对所有的人都保留判断,这个习惯既使得许多有
怪僻的人肯跟我讲心里话,也使我成为不少爱唠叨的惹人厌烦的人的受害者。
(第1页)
  参考译文:结果,我习惯了不做任何评价;这种脾气让我了解到很多种古怪
的性格,来找我的无聊老兵也非止一两个。


总而言之,虽然可能是天才,但是令人费解!



究竟哪个文本好些,难说得很。 Before I clicked on his critique that you provided, I thought the 1st translation you listed was his improved text.

to be inclined to -- 倾向于

veteran bore -- 不胜其烦向别人吐诉苦衷的扰人的老手

My opinion is neither of the translators made any major mistakes in understanding the original. It basically boils down to whose literary style in Chinese one prefers. Honestly, if I had to pick one, I would pick the 1st translator's style (巫) as the more readable.


~*~*~*~*~*~*

p.s., On second thought, the 1st translator's version delved deeper into the true meaning of the original sentence, while the 2nd translator's remained at a superficial level.

So the title to my post really ought to read "One infinitely better than the other", or simply "No contest".


[Edited at 2013-04-14 23:40 GMT]


 
ysun
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理解你的意思 Apr 14, 2013

J.H. Wang wrote:

ysun wrote:

并非文人相轻

其实,我毫无指责的意思。我只是觉得问题归问题,从另一面说,他翻译工作做得很多,是有成果、有功劳的人,作为同行,应该有同情的一面。就当前整体的图书翻译质量而言(有的翻译的图书错误千出),说不定他翻得算是比较好的呢。

我没认为你在指责我。不必在意。我这里没有文革遗风。

我没时间去看他的翻译作品。说不定他翻得确实还算是比较好的。不过,我很同意施康强先生的如下这番话。这番话也正是李继宏批驳的另一重点。从施康强先生的话里,也可看出国内文学翻译界的现状。
  傅雷当年以稿费为惟一收入来源,日译千字足以保证他过相当优裕的生活。但在今天,就算每天平均折合两千字成品,又能带来多少收益呢?以通行的文学翻译稿酬标准计算,每千字60元,两千字可得120元。扣除所得税后,净得不到100元。假如你除了翻译没有其他收入,以每周5个工作日,每年工作40周计算,译四十万字需要整整200个工作日。辛苦一年,交稿后等出书,出书后等迟迟不肯赐下的稿费,预期税后收入为20000元左右。也就是说,平均月收入约1600元。罗新璋先生日译仅得五百字,若不是另有固定工资收入,怕也坚持不下去。
  法国人有句话:没有养不活人的行当。可是在当代中国你若有志当职业翻译家,除非粗制滥造,萝卜快了不洗泥,或者天纵奇才,日产五千字保质保量,一步到位,否则连生存都成问题。何况,一个人精通一门外语,与其做翻译,他满可以选择去讲课,做家教或别的报酬要高得多的工作。另一方面,出版社既急于出书,又不愿意提高稿酬,自然难觅明其道不计其利的译者,对译文的质量也不会挑剔。如此说来,对翻译真是不能提太高的要求。一位曾经的译者在《中华读书报》(2006年4月12日)上大叹苦经。他一个工作周译8000字,换成人民币不足500元,扣税和成本之后,只余300多元。相比之下,“五六十年代译书,千字得二十余钱,不必克俭到喝‘高沫’、抽劣烟,全家犹有肉吃。译界有傅雷,岂是偶然呢?如今的物价,为当时30倍不止,但我看眼下的译文,差前贤不过10倍。这个成绩,我是喜而过望了。论事要平恕,喂耗子药,求千里足,岂有此理?”也就是说,在傅雷之后,或许有几部译著堪与傅译比肩或抗衡,但是像傅雷那样倾毕生全部精力从事文学翻译事业,其译文在母语中成为典范的大师,怕是很难产生了。


[Edited at 2013-04-14 23:08 GMT]


 
wherestip
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a veteran bore in this context Apr 14, 2013



http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/bore_3


bore noun

2 [countable] someone who is boring, especially because they talk too much about themselves or about things that do not interest you:
He turned out to be a crashing bore (=used to emphasize that someone is very boring).



It's someone who never hesitates to bother others with their own problems - health, job, marriage, etc., you name it. Basically, such a person doesn't have any consideration for other people.


 
Alan Wang
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OH ... REALLY? Apr 15, 2013

第一是理解原文,第二是转换为译入语的能力。我认为正是在转换为译入语方面,巫宁坤译文明显差得很多。

再来看看李继宏给出的第三段对照译文:

  原文:Most of the confidences were unsought—frequently I have
feigned sleep, preoccupation, or a hostile levity when I realized by
some unmistakable sign that an intimate revelation was quivering on
the horizon; for the intimate revelations of young men, or at least
the terms in which they express them, are usually plagiaristic and
marred by obvious suppressions.

译文:绝大多数的隐私都不是我打听来的——每逢我根据某种明白无误的迹
象看出又有一次倾诉衷情在地平线上喷薄欲出的时候,我往往假装睡觉,假装心
不在焉,或者装出不怀好意的轻佻态度。因为青年人倾诉的衷情,或者至少他们
表达这些衷情所用的语言,往往是剽窃性的,而且多有明显的隐瞒。(第1-2页)

参考译文:这些推心置腹多半是自作多情——如果我根据经验,从某些清楚
的迹象察觉到有人欲诉衷肠,通常便会假装睡觉、忙碌或者心不在焉;因为这些
年轻人的衷肠,至少是用来表达它们的言词,每每并不由衷,欲说还休。



巫译把quivering on the horizon直译为“在地平线上喷薄欲出”,令人觉得似乎有点黔驴技穷了

而李继宏一连串的汉语成语和习语表达,明显更流畅更漂亮,似乎也更贴切原意,这算是比较经典的文学翻译!

当然我不同意李继宏关于翻译速度和价格的观点。你再天才也不可能一天翻译五六千英文单词(某处他说一天翻译一万多汉字)的文学作品还能保持这种水平。


wherestip wrote:
究竟哪个文本好些,难说得很。 Before I clicked on his critique that you provided, I thought the 1st translation you listed was his improved text.
...
p.s., On second thought, the 1st translator's version delved deeper into the true meaning of the original sentence, while the 2nd translator's remained at a superficial level.

So the title to my post really ought to read "One infinitely better than the other", or simply "No contest".


[Edited at 2013-04-14 23:40 GMT]


[Edited at 2013-04-15 01:54 GMT]

[Edited at 2013-04-15 01:55 GMT]

[Edited at 2013-04-15 01:57 GMT]

[Edited at 2013-04-15 01:57 GMT]


 
Loise
Loise
France
Local time: 08:42
French to Chinese
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严谨的翻译、文思和速度 Apr 15, 2013

我想,李继宏的文学造诣和翻译能力是不容置疑的。不过,在他能够彻底扫除翻译失误,提供严谨的文本之前,实在不宜对他的速度过于自满。毕竟这些错误都是潦草成章的翻译造成的,需要“慢慢来”的时间才能避免。事实上,速度没有价值,严谨无误的翻译才值得自豪。

 
wherestip
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Local time: 01:42
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Really! Apr 15, 2013

Alan Wang wrote:

第一是理解原文,第二是转换为译入语的能力。我认为正是在转换为译入语方面,巫宁坤译文明显差得很多。

再来看看李继宏给出的第三段对照译文:

  原文:Most of the confidences were unsought—frequently I have
feigned sleep, preoccupation, or a hostile levity when I realized by
some unmistakable sign that an intimate revelation was quivering on
the horizon; for the intimate revelations of young men, or at least
the terms in which they express them, are usually plagiaristic and
marred by obvious suppressions.

译文:绝大多数的隐私都不是我打听来的——每逢我根据某种明白无误的迹
象看出又有一次倾诉衷情在地平线上喷薄欲出的时候,我往往假装睡觉,假装心
不在焉,或者装出不怀好意的轻佻态度。因为青年人倾诉的衷情,或者至少他们
表达这些衷情所用的语言,往往是剽窃性的,而且多有明显的隐瞒。(第1-2页)

参考译文:这些推心置腹多半是自作多情——如果我根据经验,从某些清楚
的迹象察觉到有人欲诉衷肠,通常便会假装睡觉、忙碌或者心不在焉;因为这些
年轻人的衷肠,至少是用来表达它们的言词,每每并不由衷,欲说还休。



巫译把quivering on the horizon直译为“在地平线上喷薄欲出”,令人觉得似乎有点黔驴技穷了

而李继宏一连串的汉语成语和习语表达,明显更流畅更漂亮,似乎也更贴切原意,这算是比较经典的文学翻译!



And I'd appreciate it if you could tone down your snobbish mockery.

~*~*~*~*~*

Alan,

It might be advisable to move this to another thread if you are interested in discussing this further. Because the way it's shaping up, we're heading off on a tangent once again.

Yes, Li's writing is okay as long as you're not constrained by the original. Let me simply ask you this: where did he express the meaning of "plagiaristic"? And how did he handle the partial sentence of "I realized by some unmistakable sign that an intimate revelation was quivering on the horizon"?

You can criticize Wu's Chinese phrasing as much as you want - clumsy, awkward, desperate, and what not. But at least he made an attempt at imparting to the reader what the original author wrote, instead of letting some terms, phrases, or partial sentences completely evaporate into thin air, such as Li did.

And where in the world does one get 自作多情 or 并不由衷 ? If these are the equivalent of unsought and plagiaristic, they are off by a mile.


 
wherestip
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feigned sleep, preoccupation, or a hostile levity Apr 15, 2013

假装睡觉、沉思、或戏虐嘲笑

"假装睡觉、忙碌或者心不在焉"

At least make an effort to stay true to the English meaning, instead of come up with these Chinese idioms that don't even remotely represent what the author wrote or meant.


Alan, unlike you, I don't come with a preconceived notion of who is a good translator or a good writer. The facts ought to speak for themselves.


 
Phil Hand
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Apr 15, 2013

wherestip wrote:

Yes, Li's writing is okay as long as you're not constrained by the original.


I've been trying to stay out of this argument, because there are no winners in this one. But this comment made my week. You nearly made me blow coffee out of my nose!

Reminded me of a classical music story I once heard: Bach was composing before the piano was invented, but of course we mostly play his music on the piano today. A famous harpsichordist called Wanda Landowska was not impressed by the way Bach is interpreted on the piano, so she commented to another musician: "You play Bach your way, and I'll play him his way."


 
wherestip
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LOL Apr 15, 2013

Phil Hand wrote:

I've been trying to stay out of this argument, because there are no winners in this one. But this comment made my week. You nearly made me blow coffee out of my nose!



Phil,

Sometimes I can't believe my eyes what some folks are praising or bashing.


 
Jinhang Wang
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细节问题 Apr 15, 2013

[quote]ysun wrote:

[quote]wherestip wrote:





那人连“的、地”都不分。另外,口语可以说“多少个欧洲乘客”,但笔译就应该写成“多少名欧洲乘客”,或“多少位乘客”(视上下文而定)。连牲口都不是一律都可以用“个”作为量词的,例如一头牛、两匹马、三口猪,等等。原文本意是“两千五百名欧洲乘客因轮船触礁而溺毙 (drown)”,他却译成“两百五十个欧洲乘客被淹没”(淹没不等于淹死)。我并非攻其一点,不及其余。我只是想说,如果他把速度放慢些,应该就可以避免这些低级错误。


[Edited at 2013-04-13 17:07 GMT]



对于从事文字工作的人,掌握“的、地、得”的用法应该是最基本的要求了。

对于像“多少个欧洲乘客” 这样的细节问题,一般初学翻译的人往往注意不到,或者说体会不到。这需要翻译经验的积累和生活经验的积累,或者有人给予指出。

一般来说,从事翻译工作需要五年左右的时间进行翻译实践和学习,方可达到中等程度的翻译水平,需要十年左右的时间达到较高的水平。我看了下这名译者的经历,似乎缺乏一个五年左右的过渡期,而且翻译速度求快,所以产生了不少问题,是应该注意的。


 
Jinhang Wang
Jinhang Wang  Identity Verified
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速度问题 Apr 15, 2013

Loise wrote:

需要“慢慢来”的时间才能避免。事实上,速度没有价值,严谨无误的翻译才值得自豪。



他的确需要慢下来。否则的话,一方面质量会受限制,另一方面,竟然得出了翻译费很高的结论!不过,看他的经历,好像还是很有文学基础的。

http://baike.baidu.com/view/1130339.htm#sub8387445

“他在古体诗词创作领域有超过二十年的经验,相关的兴趣延伸到古籍整理领域,目前正在对《秋水轩尺牍》和《两当轩集》进行整理和笺注。”


 
Alan Wang
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喷薄欲出 Apr 15, 2013

wherestip:

I am not arguing... not for the sake of argument.

Anyway, I can somehow see it quivering on the horizon of what you'd say, translated as:

无论如何,我觉得“在地平线上喷薄欲出”在此完全译出了原文的意思,所以说是好译文。


 
Jinhang Wang
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关于译文质量与翻译费问题 Apr 15, 2013

ysun wrote:


他那篇博客文章主要是评驳施康强先生在《文学翻译:后傅雷时代》里关于翻译速度和稿酬的观点。对于文学翻译我是外行,但文学翻译作品的好坏,我还是看得出来。我认为,翻译文学作品比翻译科技资料难得多,所以花的时间也就多得多。我很同意施康强先生的观点。

《文学翻译:后傅雷时代》 施康强
http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_517d4f5e01014z9l.html
把翻译当作一门精致的艺术,今天这样的翻译家已经不多了。在一般翻译家手里,翻译更多是一种技巧,一种“匠活”。根据我自己的经验和对同行的调查,以每六小时为一个工作日计算,一个熟练、敬业的译者在状态好的情况下,一天平均可译两千字初稿。但是同样必须有个反复核对、修改的后期制作阶段。最后折算下来,一天的进度也就一千五百字左右。

计算每小时翻译字数,应该如施康强先生所说,包括“反复核对、修改的后期制作”,应该是指提供最终译稿,而不是初稿。我前面说,为了保证质量,我的翻译速度为 300 words/hr 左右。这里面就包括我自己反复核对和修改所花的时间。如果翻译内容熟悉和重复性强的专利,借助于 Trados 等工具,我的速度便可达 500 words/hr 或以上。一篇 50,000 words 的专利,我两个星期左右就可译完。这样的速度及译稿的质量可让客户与我各得其所、皆大欢喜。我看不出有什么必要再进一步提高速度。

[Edited at 2013-04-15 01:28 GMT]



从微观上看,就单个译者而言,我认为翻译质量主要还是跟个人的翻译水平和态度有关,似乎与金钱没有太大关系。

但是,从宏观上看,就是另一回事了。当前翻译质量普遍较低,不能说与稿酬的低下没有关系,还是有很大关系的。我觉得,翻译稿酬的高低反映了社会对翻译这一文化活动的看法以及重视程度,具有导向作用。如果译者的翻译稿费低下,我们不能说在实践上社会对翻译是真正重视的。事实上,在社会分工中,无论那行,只要是真正做得好的,肯定是社会真正重视,大家真正努力的结果,并非无缘无故的。

我觉得,当前的情形是,青年译者的中文程度普遍是下降了。对于英文程度,我不能说下降了,因为现在英语教育还是很重视的,而且学英语的人还很多,应该是普遍提高了,但是,真正高水平、胜任图书翻译的译者恐怕还是很稀缺的。也可能是外语好的人根本就不做翻译,也可能是这样的人本来就稀少,或者其他原因。


 
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