| Pages in topic: [1 2] > | Simple legal advice required Thread poster: Oriol VIP
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Oriol VIP
Spain
Local time: 15:16
English to Spanish
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Hello everyone! I hope you are having a wonderful day.
I have a question on legal matters for the most experienced and knowledgeable fellow translators, or people who have found themselves in this situation before. Here it comes:
If there exists an agreement between two parties, and such agreement is breached by one of the parties by, let's say, non-payment of an agreed service, does the breached agreement still stand? Imagine there is no clause that specifies that "In ... See more Hello everyone! I hope you are having a wonderful day.
I have a question on legal matters for the most experienced and knowledgeable fellow translators, or people who have found themselves in this situation before. Here it comes:
If there exists an agreement between two parties, and such agreement is breached by one of the parties by, let's say, non-payment of an agreed service, does the breached agreement still stand? Imagine there is no clause that specifies that "In case of breach of this clause, the rest of the agreement still applies" (because there is no clause about non-payment there).
I am curious to know. I guess it is a bit like asking, if Judas betrayed Jesus, when Jesus didn't welcome him to Heaven, was that a betrayal too? Can you betray someone who has already betrayed you? Or is that simply called "justice"?
Sorry for the digression -the main question is the one about agreements.
Kind regards and thanks in advance for any advice you might have on the subject! ▲ Collapse
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The short answer is: Yes.
As long it doesn't specifically says otherwise in the agreement, the agreement still stands. Usually, the non-breaching party would have the option to terminate the agreement, but unless the agreement is terminated, it still stands, and the breaching party is obliged to enter into compliance to the agreement. The agreemnet would typically contain provisions about all this.
The key is to read the agreement.
[Edited at 2024-... See more The short answer is: Yes.
As long it doesn't specifically says otherwise in the agreement, the agreement still stands. Usually, the non-breaching party would have the option to terminate the agreement, but unless the agreement is terminated, it still stands, and the breaching party is obliged to enter into compliance to the agreement. The agreemnet would typically contain provisions about all this.
The key is to read the agreement.
[Edited at 2024-02-23 12:19 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | jyuan_us 
United States
Local time: 09:16
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| This depends on what has been breached | Feb 23 |
Say for example, if your client is a non-payer, what is the point of “the rest of the agreement still applies”？ Did you imply that you will continue to fulfil your obligation of providing them quality services even if you know they are a non-payer?
| | | | MollyRose
United States
Local time: 08:16
English to Spanish
+ ...
Your example is worded a bit off. Judas did betray Jesus, but he could have repented and received forgiveness, believing in Jesus´ character, just as Peter did after denying Him three times. Judas felt remorse (gave back the $) but didn´t go to Jesus to ask for forgiveness because he didn´t believe he could be forgiven. He went and hung himself instead. Jesus did not "betray" him because Judas didn't meet the qualifications for entering into heaven. If he had met them, Jesus could not deny h... See more Your example is worded a bit off. Judas did betray Jesus, but he could have repented and received forgiveness, believing in Jesus´ character, just as Peter did after denying Him three times. Judas felt remorse (gave back the $) but didn´t go to Jesus to ask for forgiveness because he didn´t believe he could be forgiven. He went and hung himself instead. Jesus did not "betray" him because Judas didn't meet the qualifications for entering into heaven. If he had met them, Jesus could not deny him entrance.
As for the contract, if one party does not do their part, then the other party is not obligated to do their part unless the first party makes proper amends.
In some contracts, there is a statement saying that if any of the clauses is found to be illegal (or something along those lines), the rest of the contract still remains intact. But that is not the same as breaching a clause.
[Edited at 2024-02-23 18:26 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:16
Serbian to English
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| Clarify what exactly is the problem you have | Feb 23 |
An leave theology out of it.
No one on Proz is expert in canon law, and anyway business disputes have nothing to do with theology.
Let me guess: you didn't get paid for work already done and you wonder whether you have any obligation to keep delivering more work? Or something else?
| | | | Oriol VIP
Spain
Local time: 15:16
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Thank you all for your answers and advice | Feb 26 |
Very generally: the issue is non-payment on the other side, as already suggested.
Obviously when this issue arose (we are talking about 2021 to 2023, mid-year), up to some point I stopped providing any service to this client.
Nowadays, when sending communications/reminders of payment to this client, the answers are, say, less than pleasant (I have been defamed, offended, insulted, abused, falsely accused of victimizing, etc). I have reported these, and studying reportin... See more Very generally: the issue is non-payment on the other side, as already suggested.
Obviously when this issue arose (we are talking about 2021 to 2023, mid-year), up to some point I stopped providing any service to this client.
Nowadays, when sending communications/reminders of payment to this client, the answers are, say, less than pleasant (I have been defamed, offended, insulted, abused, falsely accused of victimizing, etc). I have reported these, and studying reporting to the authorities in my country, as they are utterly cruel, abusive answers -but that is another subject.
Now I am thinking of simply publishing these answers (to perfectly professional payment reminders from my side) to try to push the non-paying client to finally pay, but they are threatening to sue me because they have that thing at the bottom of their emails "these communications are confidential, etc". The only thing that might tie me up is the NDA I signed with them when we started our relationship. I have diligently read the NDA and there is no clause to that matter, only to the translation works performed (not to the communications related to non-payment issues), so by publishing these communications to the media I wouldn't be breaching anything as per contract.
And anyway, since they are delaying payments so much, I am not even sure I have any kind of legal or moral obligation to them in this regard. This is what Clause 8 of the agreement says: The Contractor will submit the invoice for the completed work once per month by the 7th day of the following month and the Contracting Entity will pay the amount indicated in the invoice in 60 calendar days.
This clause has been openly breached by them.
So, the question is no longer "once the agreement has been breached by them, which it has as I have explained, do I have any obligation to the other party as to the breached agreement?" The question is now, "once the agreement has been breached by them, do I have any obligation at all to this non-paying client?" Am I free to publish the abusive and inflammatory responses they have provided to my perfectly professional payment reminders? Will this pressure help me get paid what they owe me?
Again, thank you all for participating! And please excuse my poor Judas analogy -there is simply no comparison between non-payment for a job and spiritual betrayal. However, I do know that, in Dante's Inferno, traitors go to the ninth circle of Hell, the one with fire and ice, where the worst of the worst are condemned. I think thieves go to the seventh, perhaps? Anyway, it was a bad analogy, sorry! I was just trying to call your attention with the Big Guy, haha.
[Edited at 2024-02-26 10:45 GMT]
[Edited at 2024-02-26 10:45 GMT]
[Edited at 2024-02-26 10:46 GMT]
[Edited at 2024-02-26 12:49 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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I wouldn't go that route at all, if I were you I'd hire a lawyer straight away…
| | | | Zea_Mays
Italy
Local time: 15:16
Member (2009)
English to German
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Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida wrote:
I wouldn't go that route at all, if I were you I'd hire a lawyer straight away…
Yes. And perhaps sell the credit to a collection firm.
NEVER go the way of public accusations as this can backfire.
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I have never been in the situation you describe. No client of mine as ever been rude to me, some are more friendly than others, but so far all have had a proper behaviour. Anyway, when someone happens to be hostile or rude to me, I do my best to keep calm and collected and sort the situation in a polite and professional way.
| | | | Oriol VIP
Spain
Local time: 15:16
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | I think you are right | Feb 27 |
I certainly do not feel comfortable with all this stuff I have told you, but I really didn't know what to do or how to manage this incredibly awkward situation.
So I will give this a couple more days to let it settle and then I will see how to proceed. After all, it's been a couple of years of non-payments -two more days won't hurt.
Thank you again all for participating and expressing your point of view -they all have been very helpful!
| | | | | Two wrongs don't make a right | Feb 27 |
I have translated contracts with provisions saying that if payments are late/don't happen at all, then service provision may be suspended until the payments are made.
But that is specified from the start.
Otherwise, I recall reading advice from a lawyer years ago, to the effect that if Party A breaches an obligation (such as its obligation to pay), that breach is almost never made good by Party B breaching an abligation (such as to provide a service). Instead of a remedy, you'... See more I have translated contracts with provisions saying that if payments are late/don't happen at all, then service provision may be suspended until the payments are made.
But that is specified from the start.
Otherwise, I recall reading advice from a lawyer years ago, to the effect that if Party A breaches an obligation (such as its obligation to pay), that breach is almost never made good by Party B breaching an abligation (such as to provide a service). Instead of a remedy, you've got a contract with not one, but two breaches.
Just as a point of general info ▲ Collapse
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 15:16
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
Charlie Bavington wrote:
Instead of a remedy, you've got a contract with not one, but two breaches.
That's correct. You can get in trouble if you refuse to deliver an ongoing order because of a late or non-payment. If you accepted the job under the agreed conditions, you have to deliver it, no matter what.
You can refuse to accept any further order until payment is done, but that's how far as it goes.
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Lieven Malaise wrote:
You can get in trouble if you refuse to deliver an ongoing order because of a late or non-payment. If you accepted the job under the agreed conditions, you have to deliver it, no matter what.
That doesn't make sense, legally, financially or ethically...
If you have a contract to supply buttons daily for 10 years, and after 1 year you haven't been paid anything, you cannot be expected to continue to supply buttons for the next 9 years.
[Edited at 2024-02-27 14:38 GMT]
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 15:16
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
Christopher Schröder wrote:
If you have a contract to supply buttons daily for 10 years, and after 1 year you haven't been paid anything, you cannot be expected to continue to supply buttons for the next 9 years.
I was talking about translation and the practice of threatening to not deliver the translation you are working on, unless your client pays your invoice from an earlier assignment. If you have accepted to perform a translation (purchase order), then you have no right to stop working on that until a payment has been made.
| | | | | The law is... (you know the rest) | Feb 27 |
Christopher Schröder wrote:
If you have a contract to supply buttons daily for 10 years, and after 1 year you haven't been paid anything, you cannot be expected to continue to supply buttons for the next 9 years.
Yes you can.
There are remedies to enforce payment, and you should use them, & continue to supply buttons.
Otherwise, there are also remedies to enforce performance.
Now, in reality, a 10-year contract will have clauses to deal with late/non payment, precisely to deal with the aspect of "expectation", as you put it.
But if it doesn't.....
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